Sperm Donation Podcast: Fertility Specialists | Newlife IVF

Fertility Journeys Episode 3: Sperm donation

In episode 3 of Fertility Journeys, we explore sperm donation.

Dr Sameer Jatkar provides a two-minute rundown of the process involved in sperm donation. Dr Jatkar also chats to Ben – a sperm donor who has helped bring five children into the world.

Host, Emily Tresidder, also speaks with Dr Sarah Nowoweiski about the laws and legalities around sperm donation.

Finally, Emily speaks with Dr Jatkar about the current sperm donor shortage in Victoria and the misconceptions around donating.


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Fertility Journeys introduction

Welcome to Fertility Journeys with Newlife IVF. Every fertility journey is different, especially within the LGBTQIA+ community. On this podcast, we’ll be sharing real stories as told by Newlife IVF patients, chatting about their journey and diving into the messy, heartbreaking, sometimes silly and often amazing world of fertility.

Our experienced medical professionals will also be on board to share their expertise and answer your questions. So strap your boots on, buckle up and join us on this wild journey. Oh, and don’t forget to pack the turkey baster.

Episode 3: Sperm donation

Emily Tresidder: Welcome to our third episode of Fertility Journeys with Newlife IVF. I’m your host, Emily Tresidder. On this week’s episode, we’ll be looking into why people become sperm donors, what you can expect and some of the legalities around sperm donation. Now, Dr Sameer Jatkar, get out your specimen jar, because it’s time for the two-minute rundown.

Dr Sameer Jatkar explains the basics of sperm donation

Dr Sameer Jatkar: The process for becoming a sperm donor is actually fairly straightforward, but it does have a number of steps. I’ll break this up into the medical side and the counselling side.

When potential donors contact our clinic via the online forms or by giving us a call, they’re put in touch with our donor team, who coordinate the whole journey. On the medical side, donors need to provide a bit of information about their personal and family history of medical and genetic issues, which is done by way of a questionnaire and by speaking with one of our fertility specialists.

Donors who are at high risk of passing issues on to children may not be accepted into a clinic-recruited process, although other paths to becoming a known donor to an individual or couple do exist.

The other part of the medical evaluation is a series of tests, including genetic tests, looking for hereditary issues, infectious diseases screening and a semen analysis to confirm sperm quality. If everything is okay, donors can proceed with the counselling process, which is the second component to the donor journey.

Our counselling team makes sure donors are aware of the rules surrounding donation. For instance, donations are made on a non-compensated basis, although the clinic covers all costs, including time off work, whilst going through the donor process. The team also go over things like family limits and what identity information may be available to offspring when they themselves become adults.

If all of the previous steps are satisfied, the actual donation process can occur, with donors asked to attend our clinic to produce samples for freezing. This usually means a few trips to the clinic to make sure we can freeze enough sperm for the future. Finally, we ask donors to attend for repeat infectious diseases screening to release samples after three months of quarantine.

Using a clinic-recruited donor can be great for single women and same-sex couples, or even heterosexual couples with sperm issues, as it takes some of the awkwardness and difficulty out of approaching people you know to act as your donor. It also means that there are legal protections for parents to understand that clinic-recruited donors will have no rights or responsibilities towards donor-conceived children. It also is great for donors themselves, who have the opportunity to create other families, and donors are informed when recipients are successful in giving birth to a child. So there you go. That’s the sperm donor process in two minutes.

Dr Sameer Jatkar is joined by Ben, a sperm donor

We’re very happy to have Ben joining us today in the studio, and Ben has been a sperm donor through our program. So thank you, Ben, for joining us.

Ben: Cool, thanks for having me here.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: So the number one question I’m sure you get asked a lot is what motivated you to become a sperm donor?

Ben: Well, I wanted to donate when I was 18, a long time ago, but my parents were like you should wait. Because I know people who got conceived by IVF. So that’s why I was interested. I think two years ago I saw some advertisements online and then I thought, yeah, let’s see what’s out there. See what we have to do.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes, great. And how did you find the entire process? Was it fairly straightforward?

Ben: Yes, basically they explain everything, through counselling, and then the process of what you have to do. Then you all do the tests and everything.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes.

Ben: Yeah, that’s pretty straightforward. And fast, pretty fast actually.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes, and I think that’s what surprises people, that it isn’t designed to take too much of your time, but there’s a bit of a process to that journey. Have you known anyone else who’s been through the process?

Ben: No.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: So you were sort of the trailblazer amongst your group of friends.

Ben: I told everyone, all my friends and family about it. Maybe more people are more interested now.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yeah, great. And how much did you know about the rules around sperm donation in Victoria? Because there are quite a number of them.

Ben: I did some research before I wanted to donate. Google has everything you want to know. It’s there, per state has a different law. I knew everything already before I started.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes, and a lot of that information is available.

Ben: Plus they tell you everything as well. Like literally everything you didn’t know, they will tell you.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: That’s through the counselling process?

Ben: Yeah everything, wow, some things I didn’t even know. I’m like, okay yeah.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes.

Ben: Like why they’re going to test your genetics, your blood tests, about all the genetic diseases. It’s just mind-blowing.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes.

Ben: Why they’re looking for sperm donors. One in six or seven couples need help, I think these days, I didn’t even know and why it is so, all the background things about that. Yeah, it’s just wow, yeah.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Fantastic. This is a bit of a curly question. Is there something that you wished you knew before starting the whole process?

Ben: No, no. It was all fairly laid out for me, like donors and everything. It’s like a normal thing in life, it’s not something new.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes, yes, yes.

Ben: I grew up with it, so I knew already everything about it. But yeah, it’s just for me, it’s like a normal thing.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes, absolutely. And what would you say to anyone who might be thinking of donating sperm?

Ben: Do it.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Excellent, yeah, to do it.

Ben: No, I mean like of course you need to… I only did it because I know I’ve come from a good family, a good background, healthy, open-minded family. That’s also a thing.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: And what do you feel about the prospect of one day being contacted by children made from your donation?

Ben: That’s why I signed up for – to become a donor. That’s part of the contract, basically. So, yeah, I know that can happen because it’s not anonymous anymore. I think that’s a good thing because back in the day it was anonymous and a lot of kids with traumas. So I think if you donate, if they can knock on my door tomorrow, I’m here.

And that’s why I talk to my friends and my family about it. They know everything already, even the baby photos. I have to share it because you never know what’s going to happen in the future. So maybe I’m living somewhere else or something happens to me – they can knock on my parents’ door. Whatever, they have to be open about it. But if that happens, maybe next week or in 10 years or 15 years, maybe it never happens. I’m here, let’s make the best of it.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yeah. The good thing is they’re not literally going to knock on your door. There is a process for putting people in touch. And have you had births from your donation that you’re aware of?

Ben: Yeah, yeah.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: How many are you up to now?

Ben: Five.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Oh, wow, yeah, yes.

Ben: All in a one-year time frame. Like it’s been really fast, yeah. I donated like less than two years ago.

And now already five and it was funny that when the first one was born, they sent me a photo and they told me if it’s a boy or girl and which month it was born. With the first one they sent me a photo, it was like okay, nice. But I asked Newlife IVF how to react to this, because I don’t know, it was my first time. They said, you have to spread the word, be happy and just show everyone and say it’s okay. So yeah, that’s what I’m doing.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes, yes. And how have your family been when they’ve seen the photos?

Ben: They love it. Yeah, they love it. At the first photo it’s like, okay, it’s a bit strange, but yeah, they love it because they knew already that I was planning to do it.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: It sounds like you’ve had a really fascinating journey and been able to see the results fairly soon, of all the benefits. I’m sure the recipient families have been superbly grateful for what you’ve done and it is an amazing thing what you’ve done for those families.

Ben: Yeah, I was just like when I donated, I just wanted to make at least one couple, lesbian couple, or independent woman happy. So if there’s one out there, that’s fine, but yeah, there’s now five already. Like that’s the best of the best.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yeah, yes, you must have super-sperm. So, Ben, you mentioned earlier that you were in fact thinking about this from the age of 18. What sort of prompted you now, at this point in your life, to revisit that?

Ben: Well, my parents, they said like you’re too young to do that. Just, you know, wait a bit longer until you’re more mature, and then maybe if you’re thinking different about everything, you should wait. And that’s why I’ve waited. I forgot about it, basically. And then I saw the advertisement popping up on the internet and was like okay well, let’s have a look. Did some research and you know, that’s why I wanted to donate.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: And it is something that we ask people to have a fairly considered decision around, and maybe that little bit of extra time allowed you to think a little bit more in detail about what to do and if it was suitable for you.

Ben: Yeah, of course you have to do your research and everything, you know. You can’t just think I’m going to donate, that’s it.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes.

Ben: It needs to be, really it’s not from day to day, it’s going to take weeks or months. You have to think about it and everything before you go for a booking and go there.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: And it is very hard to undo once you’ve had kids.

Ben: Yeah, it’s going to be part of your life that people have to understand is part of your life, if you like it or not. But it’s no matter when, like in 10 or 15 years or next week. I mean, it can happen. That’s what you sign up for.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Exactly. And when you’ve shared your experience and the fact that you now have donor-conceived children, what are the top reactions, what are the top questions you get from your friends?

Ben: How do you feel about it? How was it, when you see the first photo? Because they send you the photo. They asked them if you want to see the photo of the baby. Of course you want to see it. I mean, yeah, it sounds weird, but your brain is in charge. It can all be really tough and everything, but still, when you see the first baby photos, like okay, and also because the baby looks like yourself as a baby, like a clone.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: So you could see the family resemblance.

Ben: Yeah, like 100%. That was like, weird.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes.

Ben: Yeah, because that was from a different race as well, the first-born. I’m like hey. So my mum, she took some baby photos, put them next to it.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: And you could see the strong resemblance.

Ben: Yes, I couldn’t see any differences in it.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Wow.

Ben: The feeling you have then is still a different feeling than we actually see a baby, for example, but you see a photo and you know it’s your DNA.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes. You can see the link.

Ben: Yeah, it’s a bit weird, a good feeling, because you don’t know how to react to it.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Maybe that’s why, yeah.

Ben: And then you notice that your brain is in charge of everything you do, your thinking or whatever. It’s funny, though.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes, yes. And how do you feel about a partner or future partners knowing about all of the processes you’ve been through?

Ben: Well, you have to share it with your partner. Yeah, that’s it. You have to share it, and that’s because that’s my life, that’s what I did, and if you like it, or if you don’t like it, then we’re going to go different ways, you know.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes.

Ben: That’s it, and my missus likes it. Beautiful.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yeah, we’re in agreement.

Ben: Yeah, just she accepted. She likes it. Her family also knows, got all the baby photos already. So yeah, yeah.

Not like proud of it, but I want to spread the word, like, hey, this is my life and it’s going to be part of my life as well. So if I have my own kids, you know they’re going to meet each other. You have to spread the word, you have to tell people.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: And coming back to the actual process for going into the clinic to make the donation, did that go smoothly?

Ben: Yeah, well, it still is a bit strange to do it. You have to fuel conversations. You go there and you donate. They explain to you what you have to do. For us, it went smoothly. Yeah, you go there and you donate.

They explain to you the count and everything, like some things you never know. You’re never too old to learn.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Exactly, it might be a bit of a competition, you know, who can have the most number of swimmers in a sample.

Ben: Yeah, it’s crazy. All the things they explain to you. You’re like, okay, there’s a lot of things behind the scenes you didn’t know. Wow, a lot of things.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: And I must say, being an IVF company, we are so used to people coming and, for instance, producing samples on site and going through the process – we forget it might not be an everyday experience for our donors, so coming to the clinic might be a bit daunting for some of our donors.

Ben: Of course, because it’s something, it’s private – you have to get used to it and not every guy can do that. It’s also a bit of pressure. That’s a thing as well. They explain everything to make you feel comfortable. That’s a good thing, because that’s a thing a lot of guys probably will feel, and it happens because there’s stress. It’s strange. You go to a separate room, you know, and you have to donate.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes.

Ben: Wow, yeah.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: So, Ben, thank you very much for coming in today to have a chat with us.

Ben: Yeah, thanks.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Thank you for going through the process for being a sperm donor through Newlife IVF. Just from what we’ve heard today, you’ve really had a hugely positive impact on a number of families already and I’m sure to continue to do so in the future.

Ben: Well, thanks.

Dr Sarah Nowoweiski explains the laws and legalities around sperm donation

Emily Tresidder: You’re listening to Fertility Journeys with Newlife IVF. That was a sperm donor talking with Dr Sameer Jatkar about the ins and outs of sperm donation. The laws and legalities around sperm donation can be complicated and are often changing. Dr Sarah Nowoweiski tells us more.

Dr Sarah Nowoweiski: In Victoria, we have an altruistic model of sperm donation, meaning that donors are not financially compensated for their donation. Donors are only to be reimbursed for reasonable costs associated with providing the donation, such as medical costs or travel expenses.

Donors do not have any parental rights or any responsibilities to any child born from their donated sperm. However, for social and emotional reasons once a donor-conceived person reaches adulthood, they may find out the identity of their donor if they choose to and with consent all parties may initiate contact.

Before donating, donors must speak with a counsellor to ensure that they understand the social and emotional implications of their decision. Also, it is important that if a sperm donor has a partner or spouse, that they are included in the counselling and consenting process and aware of the donation. Finally, there are limits to the number of women who can have a baby to the same person. Donors can choose to donate to a maximum of nine women, with no limit being placed on the number of children born.

Dr Sameer Jatkar is joined by Emily Tresidder

Emily Tresidder: This is Fertility Journeys with Newlife IVF. On this episode, we’re exploring sperm donation. In this coming segment, Dr Sameer Jatkar and I will be discussing the current sperm donor shortage in Victoria and common misconceptions.

Emily Tresidder: Dr Sameer, today we’re speaking about sperm donors. I’ve actually heard that in Victoria there’s a sperm donor shortage. Is that the case and why do you think that may be the case?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: You are right, Em. We do have a big shortage of donor sperm and I think there’s really two driving factors behind that, particularly in the last five to ten years. We are seeing a hugely increased demand for donor sperm services. We have a number of, a lot of single people starting families requiring sperm donors. We have a number of same-sex couples who need sperm donation to start their families, so we’re seeing more and more people using those avenues to create diverse families.

So definitely on the demand side, we’ve seen probably an exponential increase in demand. On the supply side, it’s been a little bit difficult, particularly with the impact of the pandemic, in getting donors to engage with that process. We have been pretty emphatic with our harassing people with various campaigns and we’ve had a presence at various festivals. We’ve been at Midsumma. We have a sperm donation campaign running through Facebook and Instagram just trying to get people to engage, because I think that’s something that has happened over the course of the pandemic. People haven’t really engaged with health services as much and, of course, during all the restrictions it had been hard to get people to come into the clinic physically to donate and engage with that process.

So we’ve seen both increased demand as well as reduced supply over the last, say, five years.

Emily Tresidder: Which is exactly not what you want. How have you found people’s reception? You’ve said that you have Facebook ads and you go to these festivals. How do people typically respond?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yeah, in person people are really enthusiastic and even through our campaigns we get a lot of interested people clicking the button.

I think where we are seeing the process, or the difficulties in the process are then engaging people to physically come into the clinic and go through the remainder of that process. So online we are getting a lot of engagement, but we do see quite a bit of attrition between the people who click that button and actually fill in the forms and actually come in for their tests and go through the various steps. Now, the steps themselves are fairly straightforward. There’s nothing arduous about it, but it is a process that takes time. So, for instance, once you engage in that process, you’ll meet a doctor, whether that’s in person or via telehealth. There’s a number of tests to be run and some of those tests, things like genetic tests, take four to six weeks to come back.

So it is a process that does take a little bit longer than most people anticipate in going through the various steps. They aren’t hard steps, but they just have to be done in a certain order, so it’s not something that happens overnight.

Emily Tresidder: Yeah, well, let’s speak about the process a little bit more, because, you know, even you’re just saying you’ve got to get these tests and then you’ve got to wait a certain amount of time – I honestly thought you would just go in one day and walk out.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes.

Emily Tresidder: Is that a common misconception?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: That absolutely is the common misconception that it’s simply a matter of walking into the clinic, donating once and walking out.

And I think when we take people through the rationale to the process, things like the infectious diseases screening and quarantine period people understand oh right, okay, it takes that long to be a safe process. Or the genetic tests. And we’re running now the most advanced form of genetic screening that’s available to any couples, or reproductive partners contemplating pregnancy – screening for more than 300 recessive genetic conditions. But those genetic tests take time to come back. In fact, we send those tests to the United States to be run on the most advanced platforms that we can access. So it’s a very thorough process, but that is a process that takes time.

So it does take multiple times coming into the clinic and multiple times engaging with the clinic. It does usually take multiple times of producing samples and coming to the clinic for that reason. So I think that’s one of the barriers is people think, oh yep, it’s just going to be a quick, one-off process but it does take a bit of time.

Emily Tresidder: What are some of the other misconceptions about sperm donation?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yeah, there’s lots of them, and that’s why really looking at our website and engaging with our counsellors is really, really important.

I think the conception is that in a few years’ time, there’s about 100 kids knocking on your door saying you’ve got to look after them, or wanting to form a sort of a paternal role or relationship. And that isn’t the case. When you engage as a donor through the clinic, there’s a very clear legal division between yourself as the donor and the recipient couple, which means that there are neither rights nor responsibilities for the offspring. And, from what I’m told, often when children do seek to identify their donor person, it is to connect potentially with half siblings that might be there. It’s to find out a little bit about their background.

I think the reality is that when children are formed through the donor process, through the clinic, they have parents, they have people in a parental role, and so they’re not seeking to replace that. But it is normal for children and adults to want to know a little bit about their origins. Who do I look like and why do I have this particular trait? And sometimes that can be explained when they do connect with their donor.

Emily Tresidder: When you are a sperm donor, do you find out when your sperm is being used? You know, like you said a misconception is that you’ll have 100 children out there. Do you find out hey, your sperm’s been used today and your sperm’s being used again in six months?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yeah, we do try to keep donors informed about the process. We certainly do inform donors when children have been born as a result of their donation, so they get that information. Recipient couples can in fact share things like photographs with donors as well if they wish. The other misconception is that there are going to be 100 kids out there, which is not the case because in Victoria we have strict family limits on the number of families that can be created from any one donor’s efforts.

And it it’s not just to protect the children themselves, but also for the donors to know that there aren’t going to be hundreds and hundreds of offspring in Victoria. There is a 10-family limit, so we reserve one allocation for the donor’s own family, and there could be nine recipient families. So there is actually a limit to the number of children that will be created from any one donor.

Emily Tresidder: And that’s really interesting. And then they find out when their sperm’s been used?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Correct – and resulted in a live birth.

Emily Tressider: Yes. Can you tell us a little bit more about the sperm donor program at Newlife specifically?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes, so the donor sperm program is core to our function and right from when we first launched, we always were going to have a comprehensive donor sperm program as a full-service clinic. And because we do service a large number of single women and same-sex couples as part of our core function, we feel it’s integral to what we do on a day-to-day basis. So we’ve put a lot of resources and effort into creating that program, which has meant a lot of standing at stalls handing out flyers and information.

Oh, absolutely I’ve spent many, many an hour handing out flyers and discussing with potential donors the whole process, and it’s not something that every clinic does or does well. But we particularly have been engaged with the community to make this a core part of our function, and so we’ve dedicated a lot of resources to our sperm donor program.

Emily Tresidder: Awesome. What are some of the prerequisites for being a sperm donor? You mentioned that people will, the sperm will go through testing and all of that sort of thing, but on paper, is there something that you need to have to be a sperm donor?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes. So we ask people who are considering donation to be relatively healthy. It doesn’t mean every single medical issue is a deal breaker, just that we are mindful of the health impact on children and relatively free from hereditary conditions. Also, we do have an age requirement, that is, we like our donors to be between the ages of 21 and 45, just to ensure the healthier sperm and also to make sure that they’re in a position that they can make a decision before going down that path. But beyond being relatively healthy and within a certain age group, we don’t have any major stipulations. There’s nothing about race or height or weight, or you know. We accept all sorts of donors and all sorts of backgrounds.

Emily Tresidder: Awesome, but I wonder if people get paid?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yes that’s a great question, and the short answer is no. All donation in Australia is done on an altruistic basis, but the clinic will cover reasonable expenses that have been incurred in going through that process. For instance, say, you had to take a taxi or you’ve encountered parking to come to the clinic. We also can compensate people for their time off work, and so we would definitely make sure that people aren’t out of pocket for going through the process. But in Australia, monetary compensation is not allowed.

Emily Tresidder: Yeah, you do it because you want to do it.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Absolutely, and I think that’s the best motivation.

Emily Tresidder: Absolutely. I think so too, Sameer. When people donate sperm, is it an anonymous process?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yeah, I think that’s the popular misconception that you’re an anonymous sperm donor. We don’t use that term anymore and it is because all donors in Victoria, their identifying data goes onto a central registry and that allows children to be given that information about their origins when they themselves turn 18. And at the end of the day, the reason for that rule or perspective in Victoria is that it’s ultimately about the welfare of the child.

In the past, where children haven’t had access to their identity details and details about their origin, there is a degree of psychological harm from not knowing. And when we balance the rights of the donors versus those of the recipients, ultimately we are prioritising the welfare of the child. That’s not to say that we don’t consider the rights of the donor. The information isn’t given to recipients straight away and there is a process by which recipients have to go to the central registry to access that information. So it’s not a free-for-all and it’s not given out lightly. There is a counselling process both for the donors and the recipients.

Emily Tresidder: We’ve spoken a lot about the process and misconceptions and, of course, that there’s a shortage in Victoria of sperm donors. What would you say to someone who has listened to this and thinks OK, I could probably do this. What would you tell someone who’s considering becoming a sperm donor?

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Yeah, I think I would pass on that it’s much easier than you think, the process itself, whilst it sounds daunting with this many steps. That’s why we have donor coordinators to assist people through that journey. I think you can’t underestimate the positive impact that this has on multiple lives – to be able to help nine other families be created. That impact, whilst you might not see it straight away and it might take a little while to see the photos come through of the babies, it’s a hugely positive impact that you’re having on other people without too much of a detrimental impact on yourself.

Emily Tresidder: Yeah, absolutely, and I mean in other episodes, we’ve spoken to people who have utilised sperm donors’ sperm and have a beautiful family and they are incredibly fulfilled. So you really can’t put a price or a time or an inconvenience on that.

Dr Sameer Jatkar: Absolutely, the gratitude towards our donors. Whilst, again, the donors can’t see that immediately, it’s huge and the feedback that we get from our recipients is overwhelmingly positive. We also have some donors themselves who may have gone through fertility treatment or been in a same-sex couple themselves, and it’s a bit of a way of paying it forward or paying it back as well.

Emily Tresidder: That’s all for today’s episode of Fertility Journeys with Newlife IVF. I’ve been your host, Emily Tresidder. Thanks for listening, and thank you to all of our guests who shared their stories and insight into the sperm donation process.

You’ve been listening to Fertility Journeys with Newlife IVF. To find out more about Newlife IVF, visit newlifeivf.com.au. And to find more episodes of the podcast, visit joy.org.au/fertilityjourneys or search ‘Fertility Journeys with Newlife IVF’ on your favourite podcast platform.

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